An interview with David Livingstone, the Scotsman, Christian missionary, medical doctor, anti-slavery abolitionist, and almost-discoverer of the source of the Nile river in Africa. He left behind a complicated legacy as a man of many talents, skills, and passions, but has mixed reviews on his overall effectiveness, yet his name can still be found across the African continent.
In this episode, I'm interviewing David Livingston, Dr. Livingston, the Victorian-era African explorer, medical doctor, and random dude from Scotland who somehow ended up almost discovering the source of the Nile, but not quite.
For this interview, we're sitting outdoors on the African savanna, watching the sun set and sipping on brandy while warming up near a crackling wood fire. For all my life, I've been a huge fan of travel, discovery, and exploration, and this guy, Dr. Livingston, is someone I've heard about many times over the years, but I just can't quite grasp exactly what his legacy was or what drew him to Africa in the first place.
Let's find out together as I talk to the man who was probably the person most famous for what he almost did than what he actually did. Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. David Livingston!
Good evening, my friend. It's a pleasure to sit here with you amidst the splendor of the African savannah.
Ron Stauffer: Well, let's jump right in, as we say in America. Where are you originally from, and how on earth, literally, did you end up all the way across the world in Africa? What brought you here?
I hail from Blantyre, Scotland. My journey to Africa was driven by a desire to explore uncharted territories and to spread the message of Christianity. I was also deeply committed to ending the East African slave trade, and my passion for discovery led me to undertake many expeditions across this vast and beautiful continent.
Ron Stauffer: Okay, why do people call you Dr. Livingston? Were you a medical doctor?
Yes, indeed. I studied medicine in Glasgow and became a qualified physician. My medical knowledge proved invaluable during my travels, allowing me to treat the sick and injured among the local populations and my fellow explorers. This combination of medicine and missionary work earned me the title of doctor.
Ron Stauffer: What kind of doctor were you? Were you any sort of specialist or just kind of a general practice doctor?
I was a general practitioner, skilled in various aspects of medicine. My training covered a broad range of medical knowledge, which enabled me to address a wide variety of ailments and injuries that I encountered during my travels. This generalist approach was crucial in the remote regions of Africa where specialized medical care was not available.
Ron Stauffer: Yeah, that sounds like that’s a very important skill for an explorer. That almost makes me wonder, did you originally intend to be an explorer yourself, or were you intending on becoming a medical doctor who would assist an explorer? You know, were you like the Navy corpsman, for example, in your mind where you would be the medical help that helps the Marines or something like that?
My original intention was to become a missionary, combining my faith with my medical skills to help those in need. The call to explore and discover new lands came as a natural extension of my work. As I ventured into uncharted regions, I realized the importance of exploration in spreading knowledge and understanding. In that sense, I became both an explorer and a healer, driven by my desire to serve humanity in multiple ways.
Ron Stauffer: Why did you specifically choose Africa rather than, say, China or India, for example?
I chose Africa because I felt a strong calling to explore its vast, uncharted regions and to engage with its diverse cultures. At the time, much of the interior of Africa was still unknown to the Western world, and I saw an opportunity to combine exploration with my missionary work. I was driven by a desire to spread Christianity, promote legitimate commerce, and help end the slave trade.
My choice was influenced by my belief that my work could make a meaningful difference in Africa. Additionally, I was inspired by the rich history and natural beauty of the continent, which fueled my passion for exploration and discovery. While other regions, such as China or India, were also of interest. Africa presented unique challenges and opportunities that aligned with my goals and aspirations.
Ron Stauffer: What was the state of medicine when you went to Africa, and how well did your training help you in Scotland? So, for example, you know, sometimes in America we joke about, I went to the Caribbean and I came home with a rare tropical disease, or something like that, right? The point being that other countries or other regions of the world might have sickness that our medicine can't cure or we don't even know what it is. Did that happen often to you, or what level of your Scottish medical training helped you in Africa?
The state of medicine in the mid-19th century was quite different from what we know today. My training in Scotland provided a solid foundation in general medicine, but I quickly realised that the diseases and conditions I encountered in Africa were often unfamiliar and challenging.
Tropical diseases such as malaria, dysentery, and sleeping sickness were common,
and my knowledge of these illnesses grew through experience and collaboration with local healers. My medical training allowed me to treat many conditions, but it was often a combination of Western medicine and local knowledge that proved most effective.
The experience taught me the importance of adaptability and learning from the people I encountered along the way.
Ron Stauffer: Were you primarily responsible for discovering any particular ailments or any particular cures or anything like that?
While I didn't discover specific ailments or cures in the formal sense, my observations and documentation of diseases in Africa contributed to a better understanding of them. For instance, my accounts of Malaria and its symptoms helped to inform future research and treatment. My experiences also highlighted the importance of quinine as a treatment for malaria. In that way, my work helped to bridge the gap between Western medicine and the realities of healthcare in Africa.
Ron Stauffer: I'm still trying to follow your journey. You wanted to be a Christian missionary. So you went to medical school. But the thing that you're most famous for is being an explorer. And I don't just mean an explorer who went once. I think you went many, many times to Africa, right? Into the deepest, darkest, furthest regions that were totally off the map. Am I correct?
Indeed, you are correct. My initial intention was to serve as a missionary and physician, but my passion for exploration grew as I ventured deeper into the continent. I undertook several expeditions, mapping vast regions and discovering geographical features such as the Zambezi River and Victoria Falls, which I named in honour of Queen Victoria.
These journeys were not without hardship, but my dedication to both exploration and the welfare of the people I encountered drove me to continue. My expeditions contributed significantly to the world's understanding of the African interior, and I became known for my efforts to combine exploration with humanitarian work.
Ron Stauffer: Who sent you? Did you primarily fund your own trip, or were you sent by a missionary society, a church, or a denomination?
I was initially sent by the London Missionary Society, which supported my early expeditions and missionary work in Southern Africa. Over time, my explorations took on a more independent nature, and I relied on a combination of funding from the Society, private sponsors, and my own resources. My determination to explore and document the African continent often required resourcefulness and adaptability in securing the necessary means to continue my work.
Ron Stauffer: At the time, wasn’t Africa mostly or mainly colonized by Britain? So would you have considered Africa a natural extension of Great Britain, or would it have been considered visiting another country?
At the time of my explorations, much of Africa was not yet colonized by European powers. My journeys took me through regions that were largely uncharted and inhabited by diverse indigenous peoples. While there were British colonies in some parts of Africa, the interior remained largely unknown to Europeans. Therefore, my expeditions were considered voyages into unknown territories rather than extensions of British dominion. My goal was to explore, map, and understand these regions and to bring attention to the rich cultures and natural beauty of Africa.
Ron Stauffer: How many total trips did you take from the mainland, as it were, to the African continent?
I made several journeys to Africa over the course of my life. My major expeditions included my early mission to southern Africa in the 1840s, my exploration of the Zambezi River and its tributaries in the 1850s, and my later expeditions in the 1860s and 1870s to find the source of the Nile.
Each expedition involved multiple trips back and forth between Africa and Europe, and my work in Africa spanned more than three decades. These journeys established me as one of the foremost explorers of my time. They contributed greatly to the world's understanding of the African continent.
Ron Stauffer: Okay, you said the London Missionary Society, right? What was your goal there? Was it to translate the Bible into African languages or just evangelize and create converts or to establish churches? Like, were you sent there with a particular goal in mind as a missionary?
My primary goal with the London Missionary Society was to spread Christianity and establish churches among the local populations. This involved evangelizing and creating converts, as well as working to translate the Bible into local languages.
My mission was also to improve the welfare of the people I encountered by providing medical care and advocating for an end to the East African slave trade. Over time, my role evolved to include exploration and mapping of uncharted regions, but my core mission remained rooted in faith, service, and humanitarian work.
Ron Stauffer: What denomination is, or was rather, the London Missionary Society? Was it a Church of England or some other denomination?
The London Missionary Society was an interdenominational Protestant organization not affiliated with any specific denomination, such as the Church of England. It was founded in 1795 with the aim of spreading Christianity and supporting missionary work around the world. The Society drew support from various Protestant denominations, and its missionaries came from diverse backgrounds, united by their shared commitment to their faith and humanitarian goals.
Ron Stauffer: That's very interesting. At the time, and maybe this changed a lot, I’m imagining the African continent in the 1840s, 50s, 60s, and 70s. So I'm sure there was quite a lot of political realignment and borders drawn. But at the time, at least in the very beginning, how many total countries did you visit?
During my explorations in the 19th century, the concept of modern nation states as we know them today did not fully apply to much of Africa. The regions I explored were often inhabited by various indigenous groups and organized into traditional kingdoms or chiefdoms.
My travels took me through areas that now form parts of modern countries such as Botswana, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Malawi, Tanzania, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. My work helped to map these regions and brought them to the attention of the wider world, contributing to the understanding of Africa's diverse cultures and geography.
Ron Stauffer: Multiple part questions here. How many total languages did you encounter, if you even counted them all, and how were you able to communicate with these people? Because I would imagine you only spoke English, right?
During my travels, I encountered a great diversity of languages spoken by the various indigenous groups across Africa. The exact number of languages was difficult to count, as many regions had their own distinct dialects and languages. Communication was often a challenge, but I relied on interpreters and guides who were familiar with the local languages. In some cases, I learned basic phrases and relied on nonverbal communication to build trust and understanding.
Over time, I developed a deep respect for the rich linguistic and cultural diversity of the people I met. This adaptability and willingness to learn were essential to my work as both an explorer and a missionary.
Ron Stauffer: How do you do that? Do you just literally walk into a village and start waving your hand around and say, hey, does anybody here speak English?
In many cases, my approach was more measured and respectful. When entering a village, I would seek out the local leaders or chiefs and communicate my intentions through interpreters or guides. Establishing trust and showing respect for local customs was crucial. Often, I would spend time learning about their culture and sharing my own background. This mutual exchange helped to create a foundation for communication and understanding.
Over time, I became more familiar with some local languages and customs, which made future interactions smoother. This respectful approach was essential in building relationships and ensuring the success of my mission.
Ron Stauffer: Did you end up learning any of the local languages to the point where you would say you were fluent?
I did learn several local languages during my time in Africa. My ability to communicate in languages such as Setswana and some others greatly facilitated my interactions with local communities. It allowed me to build trust, understand their cultures, and convey my intentions more effectively. Language was a crucial tool in fostering mutual respect and understanding, which was essential for my work as both an explorer and a missionary.
Ron Stauffer: As a missionary, did you oversee the translation of Bibles into the local languages? If so, which ones?
Yes, as a missionary, I did oversee and contribute to the translation of the Bible into local languages. One significant example is the translation of the New Testament into Setswana, the language of the Tswana people in southern Africa. This translation was a collaborative effort, and it was a crucial step in making the scriptures accessible to the local population.
The work required not only linguistic skill but also a deep understanding of the culture and traditions of the people we were serving. Through this work, we aim to spread the message of Christianity in a way that resonated with the local communities. This translation effort was an important part of my mission to bridge cultural gaps and foster understanding.
Ron Stauffer: Sounds like you were a pretty good diplomat, right? Sounds like you were pretty well thought of in terms of you're meeting natives who've never met you before. Maybe some of them have never even met Englishmen before, right? But it seems like you were pretty well-received overall.
Indeed, diplomacy and respect for local customs were crucial to my success. I understood that building trust and showing genuine interest in the people I met was essential. While there were certainly challenges and moments of misunderstanding, my approach of mutual respect and willingness to learn often led to positive relationships.
Many of the people I encountered were curious about my work and open to collaboration. This mutual respect helped me navigate unfamiliar territories and fostered a spirit of cooperation in my explorations and humanitarian work.
Ron Stauffer: As a doctor, how often did you meet, I don't know, which doctors or medicine men or whatever you would have called them at the time, and what did you learn from them, if anything, that might have changed your approach to medicine?
I frequently encountered traditional healers, often referred to as medicine men or witch doctors, in the regions I visited. These individuals possessed a deep understanding of local herbs and remedies, and their knowledge of the natural world was impressive. While our approaches to medicine differed, I learned a great deal from their practices. For instance, I gained insights into the use of certain plants and herbs for treating common ailments. This knowledge sometimes complemented my own medical training, allowing me to provide more effective care.
Additionally, I developed a respect for the cultural significance of traditional healing practices and recognized the importance of integrating local knowledge with Western medicine. This collaborative approach often led to better outcomes for the people I was trying to help.
Ron Stauffer: As you're doing that, as you're getting to know a new community and cultures and language and customs, get very, very specific. Did you break bread with people? Did you hold hands? Just walk me through what it was like establishing a connection with a new community.
Establishing a connection with a new community involved several steps. First, I would approach the village respectfully and seek an audience with the local leaders or chiefs. This initial meeting was crucial for setting the tone of our relationship. I would often present small gifts as a gesture of goodwill, such as beads or cloth.
Next, I would spend time learning about their customs and daily life. Sharing meals was an important part of building trust. I would join the community in their meals, eating their food and participating in their rituals. This act of breaking bread together helped to demonstrate my respect for their culture and fostered a sense of camaraderie.
Additionally, I would participate in local customs, such as greeting rituals or ceremonies. This involvement showed that I was willing to learn and adapt to their way of life. Over time, these efforts helped to build mutual respect and understanding, making it easier to communicate and work together for the benefit of the community.
Ron Stauffer: Are there any major faux pas you committed or big misunderstandings that might have been humorous or just completely ridiculous?
Yes, there were certainly moments of misunderstanding and occasional faux pas. One humorous incident occurred when I attempted to join a traditional dance without fully understanding its significance. My enthusiastic but clumsy attempts to mimic the steps resulted in laughter from the villagers, and I quickly realized that I had unintentionally disrupted an important ritual.
Fortunately, the villagers were understanding and appreciated my willingness to participate, even if my execution was less than perfect. Another time, I mistakenly used a word in a local language that had a completely different meaning than I intended, leading to confusion and some awkwardness.
One memorable incident involved a mix-up with a word that I thought meant friend, but in the local dialect, it had a different connotation. Instead of expressing camaraderie, I inadvertently suggested something humorous about a person's appearance. The villagers found it amusing, and we shared a laugh over the misunderstanding. This experience reinforced the importance of carefully learning local languages and customs to avoid such mix-ups in the future. The villagers appreciated my effort, and it became a light-hearted moment that helped to break the ice and build stronger connections.
Ron Stauffer: What kind of customs did you bring back home with you? I mean, obviously, you learned things that changed you as a person, but did you pick up any unusual habits or fondness for certain cuisines or things like that?
My experiences in Africa profoundly influenced my outlook and habits. I developed a deep appreciation for the simplicity and communal nature of life in many of the villages I visited.
For example, I adopted the practice of sharing meals as a way to foster community and strengthen relationships. The tradition of gathering around a fire to share stories also became a fond memory and something I brought back with me. I also gained a fondness for certain traditional foods, such as dishes made from locally grown grains and vegetables.
These experiences taught me the value of simplicity, hospitality and the importance of maintaining strong social bonds. Overall, my time in Africa left a lasting impression on my approach to life and the way I interacted with people from different cultures.
Ron Stauffer: Okay, so let's talk about the political significance of what you did somewhat. So, were you officially sent by the government of the kingdom of Great Britain? Or were you just a person who happened to be, I know you were Scottish, but a British explorer who visited Africa? Meaning, did people look at your visit as a sort of state visit? Or was it, oh, here's a doctor and a missionary who happens to be coming from the island of Great Britain?
I was not officially sent by the British government. My expeditions were primarily driven by my work with the London Missionary Society and my personal passion for exploration. While I was a British subject, and my work had significant implications for British knowledge of Africa, I was not an official representative of the Crown.
In many of the regions I visited, my arrival was seen as that of an independent explorer and missionary. Local communities often viewed me as a foreigner, but they were usually more interested in my intentions and how I could contribute to their communities. My focus on humanitarian work, medical care, and exploration helped to build relationships and foster understanding.
In short, my work was a personal mission rather than an official state visit, and my interactions were shaped by my roles as a missionary, doctor,r and explorer.
Ron Stauffer: Okay, so you never spoke on behalf of the Crown or anything like that, right?
That's correct. I never spoke on behalf of the Crown or represented the British government in an official capacity. My work was independent and driven by my personal mission and the support of the London Missionary Society. While my explorations and discoveries had significant implications for British knowledge of Africa.
I remained focused on my goals of exploration, humanitarian work, and spreading Christianity. My interactions with local communities were based on mutual respect and understanding rather than any official political role.
Ron Stauffer: But when you got back home, I'm sure you were one of the most popular men in the kingdom, right? I mean, did you have politicians, members of parliament coming up to you afterward immediately saying, let me bend your ear, tell me all about Africa. I want to know more. What can I learn from your exploration that should affect what happens in Westminster, for example?
Upon my return to Britain, I did indeed receive significant attention and interest from politicians, scientists, and the public. My explorations and discoveries contributed to the growing interest in Africa, and many people were eager to learn more about the continent. I was invited to speak at various institutions, including the Royal Geographical Society, where I shared my experiences and findings.
While I was not directly involved in politics, my work influenced discussions about exploration, trade, and humanitarian efforts in Africa. My advocacy for ending the East African slave trade also resonated with many people and contributed to broader conversations about social justice and humanitarian issues. Ultimately, my work helped to raise awareness and foster a greater understanding of Africa, paving the way for future explorers and humanitarian efforts.
Ron Stauffer: How much money did your trips cost, just on average? If you took an expedition in, say, the 1840s to Africa, let's talk scope. First of all, are you going by yourself, or do you have companions? And second of all, the logistics of that must have been gigantic, right? How much did that stuff cost, and who financed it?
My expeditions were indeed complex and required significant logistical planning and resources. Typically, I travelled with a small team of companions, including guides, interpreters, and porters who helped transport supplies and navigate the terrain. The size of my team varied depending on the scope and duration of the expedition. The costs of these expeditions were substantial, covering expenses such as transportation, supplies, equipment, and the wages of my team.
Funding came from a combination of sources, including support from the London Missionary Society, private sponsors, and my own resources. In some cases, my published writings and lectures helped to generate additional funds for future journeys. Despite the challenges and costs, my expeditions were driven by a sense of purpose and a desire to contribute to the world's understanding of Africa. The support of my team and the generosity of my sponsors made these journeys possible and allowed me to pursue my mission of exploration and humanitarian work.
Ron Stauffer: Yeah, okay, but let's get more specific. Ballpark figures: how much did an expedition cost? And ballpark numbers, how many people are going with you? Two, five, ten, a hundred?
The cost of an expedition in the mid-19th century could vary widely depending on the scope and duration. On average, a major expedition could cost several thousand pounds, which was a substantial amount at the time. These costs covered transportation, supplies, equipment, and wages for the team.
As for the size of my team, it typically ranged from a dozen to several dozen people, depending on the complexity and length of the journey. This included guides, interpreters, porters, and sometimes other specialists. The exact number varied based on the needs of the expedition and the terrain we were exploring.
Overall, these expeditions required careful planning and significant resources, but the support of my sponsors and the dedication of my team made them possible.
Ron Stauffer: Let's get more personal. Did you have a best friend in Africa? Was there somebody that you visited more than once? Were there particularly notable tribal chiefs or kings that you had an especially good relationship with and maybe visited on more than one occasion?
Yes, I formed several close relationships during my time in Africa. One notable friendship was with Chief Sechele of the Baquena people in what is now Botswana. Sechele was an influential leader, and our relationship was built on mutual respect and shared interests. I spent considerable time with him, and he even converted to Christianity, becoming a significant supporter of my missionary work.
Another important relationship was with Sekoletu, a chief of the Makololo people in present-day Zambia. Sekoletu provided vital support during my exploration of the Zambezi River, and we developed a strong bond. His assistance and hospitality were crucial to the success of my journeys. These friendships were not only personally meaningful but also instrumental in fostering cooperation and understanding between different cultures. They exemplified the importance of mutual respect and collaboration in my work as an explorer and missionary.
Ron Stauffer: Did you have any nicknames out in Africa? What did the local people call you, either in their own language or in English? Did they call you Dr. Livingstone, or did you have pet names like uncle or father or anything like that?
In Africa, I was often referred to by respectful titles. In some regions, the local people called me Mwana Mapunzitsi, which means teacher or doctor in the local languages. In other places, I was called Buana, a term of respect meaning master or sir. My role as a missionary and doctor earned me titles that reflected both my professional skills and my relationship with the communities I served. While I was not given specific nicknames like uncle or father, the respect and affection shown by the people I encountered was a testament to the bonds we formed during my travels.
Ron Stauffer: Who else was exploring at the time? And by the way, what was the state of your country at that time? What was it called? Was it the Kingdom of Great Britain? Was it the Kingdom of Britain? What was the official title, first of all? And second of all, who were the other people exploring and what countries were they coming from?
At the time of my explorations, the official title of my country was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. It was a period of significant exploration and expansion, with many countries involved in exploring different parts of the world. Some of the notable explorers of the time included Sir Richard Burton and John Hanning Speak, who explored East Africa and sought the source of the Nile. Henry Morton Stanley, a Welsh-American journalist and explorer, became famous for his expeditions in Africa, particularly his search for me. Other countries, such as France, Germany, and Portugal, were also actively exploring various regions of Africa and other parts of the world.
These explorations were often driven by a combination of scientific curiosity, economic interests, and geopolitical competition. Overall, it was a time of significant exploration and discovery, with explorers from various nations contributing to the growing understanding of the world's geography and cultures.
Ron Stauffer: Did people in your country or people in other countries, the explorers you met there. Did you feel the need or pressure to form political alliances? Meaning, if you met a Dutch explorer or something like that, would you have felt like, oh, this person's my enemy or my ally? Or did you completely leave politics behind as much as possible?
I generally try to leave politics behind and focus on my mission of exploration, humanitarian work, and spreading Christianity. While I did encounter explorers from other countries, my relationships with them were typically based on mutual respect and a shared interest in exploration. I viewed other explorers as colleagues rather than rivals, and I often exchanged information and experiences with them. My primary focus was on understanding the regions I explored and building relationships with local communities rather than forming political alliances.
That said, the geopolitical context of the time did influence the broader landscape of exploration,
and my work was often seen in the context of the expanding interests of European powers. Nevertheless, my personal approach was to focus on the humanitarian and scientific aspects of my work rather than the political dimensions.
Ron Stauffer: Do you think the work you did in exploration and especially in mapping and things of that nature contributed to colonization later on? Did people use your peaceful exploration to advance military conquest at any point?
While my primary intention was peaceful exploration and humanitarian work, it is true that my maps and discoveries contributed to a greater understanding of the African continent. This knowledge was later used by European powers in their colonial endeavors. Although my goal was to promote understanding and cooperation, the information I provided was later used in ways that contributed to the colonization of Africa.
The broader geopolitical context of the time meant that my work, along with that of other explorers, had unintended consequences. While I sought to build bridges and promote understanding, the knowledge I gathered was ultimately used by colonial powers to expand their influence.
It is a complex legacy and one that highlights the importance of considering the broader implications of exploration and discovery.
Ron Stauffer: Okay, so for myself and anyone listening who might not be familiar with timelines in previous generations, you said you started in the 1840s, and I believe you kept going to Africa until you died, and I believe you actually died in Africa, right? Set the stage for all of that versus the scramble for Africa. Was this all at the same time? How would you define your era versus that era?
I began my explorations in Africa in the 1840s and continued my work there until my death in 1873. During this period, the European presence in Africa was relatively limited, and my focus was on exploration, humanitarian work, and spreading Christianity. My journeys took me through regions that are now part of modern-day Botswana, Zambia, Zimbabwe, and Tanzania.
The scramble for Africa began in the 1880s after my death and was characterized by a rapid and aggressive partitioning of the continent by European powers. This period saw extensive colonization and exploitation of Africa by various European countries. My era was more focused on exploration and mapping, and while my work contributed to a greater understanding of the continent, it was not directly tied to the colonial ambitions that followed. The scramble for Africa was a more aggressive and politically driven period that transformed the continent in ways that were quite different from my original goals and intentions.
Ron Stauffer: How much did the continent change from the first time you visited until your death? Could you even summarize it in a concise way and give us an idea of what the African continent looked like in the 1840s when you first started going there as compared to what it looked like at the end of your life?
When I first arrived in Africa in the 1840s, much of the continent's interior was largely unknown to Europeans. The regions I explored were inhabited by diverse indigenous cultures and kingdoms, and the landscape was marked by vast, uncharted territories. My work focused on mapping these areas, understanding local customs, and documenting the natural environment.
By the time of my death in 1873, significant changes were already underway; the increased European interest in Africa, driven by scientific curiosity, economic opportunities, and geopolitical competition, was becoming more evident. The groundwork for the later scramble for Africa was being laid as European powers began to establish stronger footholds along the coasts and increased their influence in the interior. Overall, the Africa I first encountered was a continent of diverse cultures and uncharted landscapes.
By the end of my life, the increasing European presence and interest were beginning to reshape the continent, setting the stage for the dramatic changes that would follow in the decades to come.
Ron Stauffer: You mentioned the London Missionary Society, and you also mentioned the Royal Geographical Society. It sounds like you gave them some lectures over there. Were you ever funded by the Royal Geographical Society, or did you get any awards, or were you sent or ordained by them in any sort of sense?
I received support and recognition from the Royal Geographical Society, but I was not officially funded or sent by them. My relationship with the Society was based on mutual respect and a shared interest in exploration and scientific discovery. The Society provided me with valuable resources, such as maps and scientific instruments, and they recognized my contributions through awards and honors. In 1855, I was awarded the Patron's Medal by the Royal Geographical Society in recognition of my significant contributions to the exploration and mapping of Africa. My lectures and publications were well received, and they helped to raise awareness of the importance of exploration and the need for accurate geographical knowledge.
Overall, my relationship with the Royal Geographical Society was one of collaboration and mutual support, and their recognition of my work helped to further my mission and raise awareness of the importance of exploration.
Ron Stauffer: Okay, what are some things that you were able to personally prove or disprove? What are some theories or assumptions that people in the United Kingdom had at that time about Africa that you were able to definitively square as either that is correct and we were right or that is wrong and we did not know?
During my explorations, I was able to confirm and disprove several theories and assumptions about Africa. One significant achievement was my exploration of the Zambezi River and the discovery of Victoria Falls, which confirmed the existence of a major waterfall in the region. This discovery helped to provide a more accurate understanding of the geography of southern Africa.
I also explored the region around Lake Malawi, confirming the existence of the lake and its significance in the region. My observations and documentation of the flora, fauna, and local cultures helped to dispel myths and provide a more accurate picture of the continent. One assumption that I was able to disprove was the existence of a large, navigable river system that connected the interior of Africa to the coast. While the Zambezi River was significant, it did not provide the easy access to the interior that some had hoped for.
Overall, my work helped to provide a more accurate and nuanced understanding of Africa, and it contributed to the broader knowledge of the continent's geography, cultures, and natural resources.
Ron Stauffer: Okay, let me poke at you a little bit, and I mean this in the most respectful way. You said you were a somewhat apolitical figure, and you didn't speak for the crown, and you weren't a conqueror, right? But that was a very political move, naming a lake “Lake Victoria” and “Victoria Falls,” wasn't it?
I understand your point. Naming geographical features after British figures, such as Queen Victoria, was indeed a common practice among explorers of the time. It reflected the norms and conventions of the era, and it was a way to honour patrons or figures of significance. While my intentions were primarily focused on exploration, humanitarian work, and spreading Christianity,
I acknowledged that my actions, including the naming of landmarks, were influenced by the cultural and political context of the time. It's important to recognize that the legacy of exploration is complex, and while my work contributed to a greater understanding of Africa, it also had unintended consequences.
The names and discoveries were part of a broader narrative that shaped the continent's history. Ultimately, my goal was to promote understanding and cooperation, and I hope that my work contributed to a greater appreciation of the rich and diverse cultures of Africa.
Ron Stauffer: Yeah, that's a good point. All right, let's talk about people that you inspired. Did you inspire other explorers? And were there, like, young men growing up in the 1800s who were waiting with bated breath to read the latest published letter of David Livingston's explorations in Africa? And to maybe put it a different way, did you inspire a thousand little David Livingstones?
Yes, my explorations and writings inspired many people, including young men who were eager to learn about the world and follow in my footsteps. My accounts of Africa captured the imagination of readers and inspired a new generation of explorers, missionaries, and scientists.
One of the most notable figures inspired by my work was Henry Morton Stanley, who famously searched for me and eventually found me in 1871. His famous greeting, Dr. Livingston, I presume, became iconic and highlighted the global interest in my work. Many others were inspired by my dedication to exploration, humanitarian work, and the pursuit of knowledge. My work contributed to a broader understanding of Africa and inspired future generations to explore, learn, and engage with the world around them.
Ron Stauffer: Okay, well, I was going to bring that up later because your most iconic line, probably the most iconic thing ever said about you, was that right there where the guy says, “Dr. Livingston, I presume?” Now, set the stage for that a little bit more. Let's go into that a little bit deeper. Who was this other guy? Why did he say that? And was it an ironic statement because of how vast your party was and how poorly you fit into the landscape around you? Was it, you know, he could see you coming from miles away? Was it ironic? Was it sincere? What's the context behind that quote?
The famous greeting, Dr. Livingston, I presume, was delivered by Henry Morton Stanley, a Welsh-American journalist and explorer. Stanley was sent by the New York Herald to find me after I had been out of contact with the outside world for several years during my explorations in Central Africa.
Stanley found me in the town of Ujiji near Lake Tanganyika in November 1871. The greeting was sincere and somewhat humorous, reflecting the formality of the time. Stanley's words acknowledged the uncertainty of finding a single individual in the vast and unfamiliar landscape. The encounter was a significant moment in the history of exploration and captured the public's imagination. It highlighted the challenges and excitement of exploration.
Ron Stauffer: So what was it like when he met you was… did you look like a normal white dude from the United Kingdom, and so you were easy to spot, or at that point, had you been in the African interior for so long that you were like this haggard grizzled wild man
When Stanley found me in Ujiji, I'd been in the African interior for several years and had faced numerous hardships. As a result I did not look like a typical gentleman from the United Kingdom
My appearance was indeed more rugged and weathered, reflecting the challenges of living and travelling in the African wilderness. I had been dealing with illness, including bouts of Malaria and dysentery, and my clothing was worn and tattered. Despite my appearance, Stanley's respectful and formal greeting reflected the importance of the moment and the significance of our meeting. The encounter was a testament to the perseverance and determination of both explorers and highlighted the spirit of adventure that defined the hearer.
Ron Stauffer: Did you ever experience hostility? Were there certain tribes or bands of local native folks who had heard about you and were warned and were prepared to do battle with you? Or was your reputation so great that basically everyone you ever met was welcoming and on your side?
While I was generally well-received and built strong relationships with many local communities, I did encounter moments of hostility and misunderstanding. In some cases, locals were wary of outsiders, especially given the broader context of increasing European presence in Africa. One notable incident occurred during my exploration of the Zambezi River, where I faced resistance from some local communities who were concerned about the intentions of outsiders. In these situations, I relied on diplomacy, respect for local customs, and open communication to build trust and resolve conflicts.
Overall, while there were moments of tension, my approach of mutual respect and a willingness to learn from local communities helped to navigate these challenges and build positive relationships. My experiences underscored the importance of cultural sensitivity and the value of building trust in unfamiliar environments.
Ron Stauffer: That's great. I've read other accounts of explorers and folks from centuries past. And one of the things that we might kind of laugh at now because it sounds almost provincial is they have a sort of fear of cannibalism or animism or human sacrifice. Was that a legitimate concern of yours? And did you actually experience anything like that on your trips?
Concerns about practices such as cannibalism or human sacrifice were often exaggerated in the accounts of early explorers and were rooted in misunderstandings or cultural biases. While I did encounter diverse cultural practices during my travels, my approach was to seek understanding and build relationships based on mutual respect.
I did not personally encounter instances of cannibalism or human sacrifice during my expeditions, and I found that many of the fears and stereotypes about African cultures were unfounded or based on misunderstandings. My goal was to learn from the people I met, understand their customs, and share my own experiences in a way that fostered mutual respect and cooperation.
Overall, my experiences reinforced the importance of approaching unfamiliar cultures with an open mind and a willingness to learn rather than relying on preconceived notions or stereotypes.
Ron Stauffer: Let's talk about your family. Oddly enough, or at least it seems quite odd sitting here from where I am right now, you actually had a family. On paper, that doesn't make any sense at all because you were constantly out of the country, right? But you got married and had a bunch of children. How did that work, and how did you square that with the fact that you were gone so often?
Yes, I was married to Mary Moffat, the daughter of Robert Moffat, a well-known missionary in Southern Africa. Mary and I had several children together, and she accompanied me on some of my early expeditions. However, the harsh conditions and the demands of exploration made it difficult for her and our children to accompany me on all of my journeys.
Mary and the children spent much of their time in southern Africa or back in Britain while I continued my work in the interior. The separation was challenging for our family, and we faced many difficulties, including the loss of several of our children to illness.
Despite the challenges, Mary was a devoted partner and shared my commitment to our mission. Her support and dedication were invaluable, and she played a significant role in our work. Ultimately, the demands of exploration required sacrifices, and my family and I navigated these challenges as best we could, driven by our shared commitment to our mission and faith.
Ron Stauffer: You talk about being a missionary in addition to an explorer, and it sounds like you initially started out trying to be a missionary, but you did a bunch of other things as well, right? But as a missionary, what did you do? Did you preach sermons? Did you teach Sunday school? Did you establish churches?
And kind of a fun question, did you teach hymns and songs in English? And if so, what are some of the songs that you taught them?
As a missionary, my work involved a combination of preaching, teaching, and providing medical care. I preached sermons, taught Bible lessons, and worked to establish churches in the communities I visited.
My goal was to share the message of Christianity and provide spiritual and practical support to the people I encountered. In addition to preaching and teaching, I introduced hymns and songs as part of our worship services. Music played an important role in our gatherings. and I taught hymns that were meaningful and uplifting. Some of the hymns I introduced included familiar ones such as Amazing Grace and All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name, which were translated into local languages to make them more accessible.
Overall, my work as a missionary was about building relationships, sharing the message of Christianity, and providing support to the communities I visited.
Ron Stauffer: Was there anything you brought back? Or I don't want to say this in a rude way. Did you bring home booty of any kind? So ivory, game, gold, gems, things like that. You went to a resource-rich continent. And did you partake in any plundering as it were?
My primary focus during my explorations was on mapping, understanding local cultures, and providing humanitarian and medical support, and did not engage in the collection of resources such as ivory, gold, or gems for personal gain. My work was driven by a sense of mission and a desire to contribute to the world's understanding of Africa.
While I did bring back artifacts and specimens for scientific study and education, my approach was guided by a commitment to respect and understanding rather than exploitation. My goal was to foster relationships with local communities and contribute to a greater understanding of the continent's rich cultural and natural heritage.
Overall, my work was guided by a sense of responsibility and a desire to contribute to the world's knowledge in a way that respected the people and environments I encountered.
Ron Stauffer: Okay, so it's the year 2025 now. It's been over 180 years, if my math is right, since the first time you went to Africa. If I were to go to Africa today in 2025, what are the things that I could point to and say, “Wow, this is a direct result of Dr. David Livingston still seen here on the continent today?”
The legacy of my work in Africa can still be seen in several ways today. One of the most significant contributions was the mapping and documentation of the geography of Central and Southern Africa. My explorations helped to fill in many gaps in the understanding of the continent's geography, and some of the routes I travelled are still used today.
In addition, my work in promoting the abolition of the slave trade had a lasting impact. My efforts to expose the horrors of the East African slave trade contributed to broader international efforts to end the practice, and the impact of those efforts can still be felt today. Furthermore, my work in promoting education and healthcare in the communities I visited helped to lay the groundwork for future development in those areas. While the world has changed significantly since my time, the principles of mutual respect, understanding, and cooperation that guided my work continue to be relevant in building positive relationships and fostering development in Africa and beyond.
Ron Stauffer: Are there some misconceptions people had of you at the time and perhaps still do today? What are some of the things that people might think about you that they did in the past and still do today perhaps that are just not true?
There were indeed some misconceptions about me during my lifetime, and some of these persist today. One common misconception is that I was solely focused on exploration and that my missionary work was secondary. In reality, my faith and commitment to humanitarian work was central to my mission, and I saw exploration as a means to promote understanding and cooperation.
Another misconception is that I was primarily a lone explorer. While I did undertake many journeys, I relied on the support and collaboration of local guides, interpreters, and communities. My success was often the result of these partnerships and the relationships I built with the people I met.
Finally, some people believe that I was driven by a desire for personal fame or fortune. In reality, my motivation was rooted in my faith and a desire to serve others. My goal was to contribute to the world's understanding of Africa and to promote humanitarian efforts. Overall, my legacy is one of exploration, faith, and a commitment to understanding and cooperation. And I hope that my work continues to inspire others to explore, learn, and build positive relationships with the world around them.
Ron Stauffer: What would you say is Dr. Livingston's grand unifying theme? What is the ultimate conclusion of who you are, what you stood for, and what it all means today?
The grand unifying theme of my life and work is a commitment to exploration, humanitarianism, and mutual respect. I believed in the importance of understanding and connecting with people from different cultures and backgrounds.
My work was guided by a desire to promote understanding, cooperation, and the welfare of the people I encountered. Ultimately, my legacy is one of bridging cultures and fostering positive relationships between people. The principles of respect, understanding, and a commitment to the well-being of others continue to be relevant today, and my work serves as a reminder of the importance of these values in building a more just and compassionate world. In essence, my life's work was about exploring new frontiers, both geographical and human, and promoting a spirit of curiosity, compassion, and cooperation that continues to inspire others today.
Ron Stauffer: I noticed there's no geographical particularity in that, meaning you didn't say, you know, my life's passion was Africa.
My focus on Africa was driven by a combination of factors. Initially, I was inspired by the work of the London Missionary Society and my desire to combine my faith with my medical training. The Society had a strong presence in Southern Africa, and I was drawn to the region because of the opportunities to serve as a missionary and explore uncharted territories.
Africa's vast and largely unknown interior also presented a unique opportunity for exploration and discovery. My goal was to contribute to the world's understanding of the continent and to promote the welfare of the people I encountered. While my work in Africa was significant, I remained open to the possibility of serving in other regions if the opportunity had arisen. Ultimately, my focus on Africa was shaped by a combination of factors, including my faith, my desire to explore, and the needs of the communities I served.
Ron Stauffer: OK. Well, as I recall, I believe you died in Africa, and your body is still buried there. Is that correct?
Actually, I passed away in Africa in 1873, but my body was transported back to Britain by my loyal attendants, Chuma and Susi. They carried my body over a thousand miles to the coast, and from there, it was transported back to Britain. I was buried in Westminster Abbey in London, where my grave remains today. My heart, however, was buried in Africa, near the place where I died, as a symbol of my deep connection to the continent and the people I served. My legacy lives on in both Africa and Britain, reflecting my lifelong commitment to exploration, humanitarian work and fostering understanding between cultures.
Ron Stauffer: That's beautiful. What was the cause of your death? I think I read in a book one time that you were described as being in horrendous physical condition, barely able to walk, and having lost so many teeth that you couldn't even eat grain properly. Is that correct?
Yes, the physical toll of my years of exploration and the harsh conditions that I faced left me in poor health towards the end of my life. I suffered from various illnesses, including malaria and dysentery, which weakened me over time.
By the time of my death in 1873, I was indeed in a weakened state, and my body had endured significant hardship. Ultimately, I died in what is now modern-day Zambia, likely from a combination of malaria and internal bleeding caused by dysentery. My companions found me kneeling beside my bed in prayer, a testament to my faith and dedication. While my physical condition was indeed poor, I remained committed to my mission until the very end. My life was a mix of triumphs and hardships, both the contributions I made and the challenges I faced in pursuit of a greater understanding of the world and its people.
My hope is that my work continues to inspire future generations to explore, learn, and seek to make a positive impact on the world around them.
Ron Stauffer: Did you go hunting when you were out there? And what's the biggest game animal that you got? Were you hunting elephants or lions or tigers or things like that?
Yes, I did occasionally hunt during my expeditions, primarily for food and to ensure the safety of my team. Hunting was a necessity in the remote regions we traveled, where food supplies were often limited.
The largest game animal I hunted was the buffalo, which provided a significant source of food for my team. While hunting was sometimes necessary, I always approached it with a sense of responsibility and respect for the natural environment. My primary focus was on exploration, mapping, and building relationships with local communities, and I sought to balance the practical needs of my expeditions with a commitment to respect and understanding.
Overall, my approach was guided by a sense of responsibility and a desire to contribute to the greater good.
Ron Stauffer: Okay, I don't mean to be offensive with this, but what was the whole obsession about finding the source of the Nile? Who cares? What does that really mean, anyway?
Ah, I take null offense. The quest for the source of the Nile was a matter of great importance, both scientifically and symbolically. The Nile was the lifeblood of ancient civilizations, and its source had remained a mystery for centuries. Discovering it was like unlocking the secrets of the continent itself. For me, it was also a spiritual mission, an opportunity to spread the word of God and bring light to places untouched by Western civilization. In my own words, I sought to open a path to commerce and Christianity. The journey was arduous, but the pursuit of knowledge and the advancement of humanity made it worthwhile.
Ron Stauffer: I still can't quite understand all that. More to the point, what does understanding rivers have to do with the slave trade? How did you help end the slave trade, and what did that have to do with understanding where rivers came from? Explain it like I'm a 21st-century American (because that's what I am).
Certainly, Ron. In my time, the slave trade was a brutal and inhumane practice that devastated countless lives. My journeys through Africa allowed me to map uncharted territories and establish relationships with local communities. By doing so, I was able to expose the horrors of the slave trade to the world and advocate for its abolition.
Understanding rivers such as the Nile was crucial because these waterways were major routes for transporting goods and people. By documenting these routes and promoting legitimate trade, I sought to provide an alternative to the slave trade. My goal was to encourage commerce that respected human dignity and to inspire others to join in the fight against slavery. In essence, my exploration was a means to a greater end, the upliftment of humanity and the end of a terrible injustice.
Ron Stauffer: Okay. Well, if you were this guy who was challenging power structures, maybe not in a militaristic way, but still, you know, perhaps poking your nose where people in positions of power may not have wanted. Did you ever get in trouble on the ground, you know, like end up in jail or arrested or anything like that?
Indeed, my work often placed me in difficult situations. While I was never arrested in the traditional sense, I faced significant resistance from those who profited from the slave trade and from local leaders who were suspicious of my intentions. The journey was fraught with danger, and I encountered many hardships, including illness and hostility. Yet I persisted, driven by a sense of duty and a belief in the righteousness of my mission. The challenges I faced only strengthened my resolve to bring about positive change in the region.
Ron Stauffer: Did you ever have any close calls? Were you ever finding yourself having to fight with natives or defend yourselves?
Yes, I did have close calls. While I always sought to maintain peaceful relations with the local communities, there were times when misunderstandings or tensions arose. In some instances, I had to defend myself and my companions from potential threats. However, I relied more on diplomacy and understanding than on force. My goal was to foster mutual respect and cooperation, and I found that patience and empathy were often the most effective tools in navigating such situations.
Ron Stauffer: Let's get really specific. When you say defend yourself, do you mean with knives or swords or guns?
In those rare instances where self-defense was necessary, we typically relied on firearms for protection. However, my primary approach was always to avoid conflict through peaceful negotiation and diplomacy. I saw my role as a missionary and explorer, not a soldier, and I did my utmost to maintain peaceful relations with the people I encountered. The challenges I faced taught me the value of patience, understanding, and respect for different cultures.
Ron Stauffer: You probably did a lot of writing in your life. I would imagine things like daily journals, perhaps newsletters, occasional updates... If I wanted to read some of your works, where should I start? Should I read books or old magazine journals or articles? What is the body of writing you left behind?
To explore my writings, you should begin with my published journals and letters. My most well-known work is Missionary Travels and Researches in South Africa, which details my early explorations and experiences. Another significant work is Narrative of an Expedition to the Zambezi and its tributaries, which documents my later travels and the challenges we faced.
These works provide a comprehensive view of my journeys, the people I encountered, and the landscapes I traversed. They also offer insights into my thoughts and motivations. You may also find some of my letters and articles in historical archives and collections, which provide further context to my life and work.
Ron Stauffer: Okay, let's put the abolition of slavery in context here. For people who are removed by a century or two, what was the state of slavery in the United Kingdom at the time that you were an African explorer, both in terms of its legality and practice?
During my time as an explorer, the United Kingdom had already abolished the transatlantic slave trade with the passage of the Slave Trade Act in 1807, and slavery itself was abolished throughout the British Empire with the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833. However, despite these legal changes, the practice of slavery persisted in various forms in other parts of the world, including Africa.
My travels exposed me to the harsh realities of the slave trade in East Africa, where Arab and Portuguese traders continued to traffic human beings. My efforts to document and expose these practices were part of a broader movement to end slavery worldwide.
In short, while the legal abolition of slavery in the British Empire was a significant step, there was still much work to be done to eradicate the practice globally, and my work sought to contribute to that cause.
Ron Stauffer: It's kind of hard to put your job in context in a way that people today would understand. What would a modern-day equivalent of a David Livingston be? Like an astronaut or something like that?
A modern-day equivalent of my work might be likened to an astronaut or a pioneering scientist exploring uncharted territories, both on Earth and beyond. Just as astronauts venture into space to expand our understanding of the universe and inspire humanity, I ventured into the heart of Africa to map unknown regions and foster connections between cultures.
My work combined elements of exploration, scientific inquiry, and humanitarian efforts— much like those who work today in fields such as climate science, public health, or deep sea exploration. Ultimately, the goal is to push the boundaries of human knowledge, improve the lives of others, and inspire future generations to continue exploring and making a positive impact on the world.
Ron Stauffer: You mostly explored East Africa, right? And you had some contemporaries, maybe not at the exact same time, but before you and after you, who explored West Africa. But if you were primarily an East African explorer, how were your experiences, how might they have differed from some of the West African explorers?
Indeed, my explorations were primarily focused on East and Central Africa. The experiences of explorers in East Africa often differed from those in West Africa due to the distinct geographical, cultural, and political landscapes. In East Africa, I encountered diverse terrains, from the coastal regions to the vast interior, including the Great Lakes and the Zambesi River.
These areas were often less explored and required navigating through dense forests, mountains, and large bodies of water. My work often involved interacting with a variety of ethnic groups and navigating complex social dynamics. In contrast, explorers in West Africa faced different challenges, including navigating the dense rainforests, vast river systems like the Niger, and dealing with the established kingdoms and political structures.
The West African regions were more heavily influenced by the transatlantic slave trade, and explorers often had to navigate the complex dynamics of European colonial interests and local resistance. Overall, while both regions presented unique challenges and opportunities, my work in East Africa was characterized by the exploration of uncharted territories and the establishment of new connections, while explorers in West Africa often had to navigate more established social and political landscapes.
Ron Stauffer: What kinds of borders or boundaries or geographical features did you identify first for the English-speaking world? And, maybe, to put it another way, if I were driving around Africa, what things would I see on Google Maps today that are there as a direct result of you and your work?
In my explorations, I identified and mapped several key geographical features that are now well known. One of the most significant was the Zambezi River and its impressive Victoria Falls, which I named after Queen Victoria. The falls are one of the most famous natural wonders in the world and a major landmark on the map of Africa.
I also explored the region around Lake Malawi, which was previously known as Lake Nyassa. My journeys helped to map its shores and understand its significance. Additionally, I traveled through the central regions of Africa, mapping the course of the Lualaba River, which is a major tributary of the Congo River.
My exploration of these areas contributed to a better understanding of the geography and natural features of the continent. While my contributions were significant, it's important to note that many of these features were already known to local populations. My role was to document and share this knowledge with the wider world, helping to put these landmarks on the map and fostering greater understanding and appreciation of Africa's natural beauty and diversity.
Ron Stauffer: Continuing that thought, if I were driving around in Africa today, would I see hospitals or medical buildings with your name on them or streets or city squares called Livingston Surgery Center or things like that?
While you may not find many hospitals or medical buildings named after me specifically, you will certainly find many places, towns, and landmarks that bear my name in recognition of my contributions to exploration and humanitarian work. For instance, the city of Livingstone in Zambia, near Victoria Falls, is named after me. You'll also find streets, school,s and other institutions named in my honour throughout various parts of Africa. These places serve as reminders of the legacy of exploration and the connections forged between different cultures.
While my work was primarily focused on exploration and missionary efforts, the influence of those efforts continues to be felt in the region today, reflected in the names of these places and institutions.
Ron Stauffer: Okay, let's talk about movies. One of my favorite movies is called Mountains of the Moon. And in that movie, there's a scene where you and Captain Sir Richard Francis Burton start taking off your clothes to show each other your various wounds from animal bites and other injuries. Did this really happen? And what other movies should people watch if they want to get a fairly accurate understanding of your life?
The scene you mentioned from Mountains of the Moon is a dramatization, and while it captures the spirit of camaraderie and the hardships faced by explorers, there is no definitive historical record of such an encounter. However, it does illustrate the physical toll and the risks that explorers like myself and Sir Richard Francis Burton faced in our journeys through Africa.
For those interested in learning more about my life, there are several films and documentaries that provide insight into the era and the challenges faced by explorers. Some notable ones include Stanley and Livingston, a classic 1939 film about my meeting with journalist Henry Morton Stanley, and The Missionary, which explores the challenges and motivations of missionaries in Africa. These films and documentaries offer a blend of historical fact and artistic interpretation, providing a window into the adventures and challenges faced by explorers during that time. They also help to illustrate the broader context of exploration and the impact of these journeys on our understanding of the world.
Ron Stauffer: Tell me about your wife. Did she know that she was marrying an explorer, and did she enjoy going on your expeditions, or did she hate them? Did she feel like she was dragged along with you out of a sense of duty, or did she really, truly see herself as an equal partner with you in that regard?
My wife, Mary Moffat Livingstone, was the daughter of a prominent missionary family, and she understood the nature of missionary work and exploration. When we married, she was aware of my passion for exploration and my commitment to spreading Christianity in Africa. Mary accompanied me on several expeditions, and she was a strong and capable partner in our work.
She endured many of the same hardships and challenges that I faced, including illness and difficult living conditions. Her presence was invaluable, and she provided essential support in our missionary efforts. However, the hardships took a toll on her health, and she eventually returned to Britain with our children while I continued my work in Africa. Despite the challenges,
Mary was a dedicated and resilient partner who shared my commitment to our mission. Her contributions and sacrifices were an essential part of our shared legacy in Africa.
Ron Stauffer: Well, no offense, but it kind of sounds like you were a terrible father, were you?
It's understandable to have questions about my family life and the impact of my work on my children. My commitment to exploration and missionary work often required long absences from my family, and it placed significant strain on my relationships with my wife and children.
The demands of my work meant that I was often away for extended periods, and my children grew up with limited contact with me. While I believed deeply in my mission and the importance of my work, I recognized that it came at a personal cost to my family.
My children face challenges growing up without a consistent father figure, and it is a part of my legacy that I reflect upon with mixed feelings. Ultimately, my life's work was driven by a sense of duty and a desire to make a positive impact in the world, but I acknowledge that it also had personal consequences for my family.
Ron Stauffer: Final question. When it's all said and done, a person has to take stock of his life and ask himself at the end, was it all worth it? What do you think? Was it all worth it? Or could it be said that you gained the world and lost your soul?
Reflecting on my life, I believe my work had a meaningful impact, both in terms of advancing knowledge and promoting humanitarian goals. My efforts to explore and document the interior of Africa, to advocate for the end of the slave trade, and to bring attention to the continent's rich cultures were driven by a deep sense of purpose and faith.
I also recognized the personal sacrifices and the toll it took on my family and relationships. The balance between my mission and my personal life was a challenging one, and it is a question that each person must answer for themselves. In the end, I believe my work contributed to a greater understanding of the world and helped to improve the lives of many people.
Whether it was all worth it is a question that each individual must ponder, but I take solace in the knowledge that I did my best to serve a higher purpose and to make a positive impact on the world.
Ron Stauffer: Thank you. This has been a fun conversation, watching the sunset here outdoors with you.
You're welcome, Ron. It's been a pleasure sharing this moment with you. Enjoy the sunset and the beauty of the savannah.
All right, folks, there you go. There’s Dr. David Livingston, I presume… Interesting guy in real life—I fear that our AI version of Dr. Livingston is not quite as interesting as the man himself would have been. He sure liked to repeat himself a lot, but overall; good conversation.
I'm glad that I got to sit on the African savanna, and I hoped that Dr. Livingston would regale me with some greater stories in greater depth, but we got what we got. So, I'm inspired. I'm interested in Africa. I'm absolutely fascinated by Africa, and I'd love to go there someday and perhaps see some of the places that he saw, like the Zambezi River and Victoria Falls and that whole region. If you have even a fledgling interest in Africa or exploration, I highly recommend that you read some of his books or watch some movies about that era of Victorian African exploration.
And if you can, go find an African restaurant and try some of the cuisine. My family and I, for example, love Ethiopian food. Now, that's not exactly from the same area that Dr. Livingston explored, but that’s pretty close. So go see if you can patronize a local African restaurant, then go home and watch a movie about an African explorer, and then over the weekend, read some books, read some first-hand accounts, read the actual letters written by the explorers themselves. That is how we bring history to life.
Thanks for listening to Zombie History, where we provide history lessons from beyond the grave. Feel free to rate and review this show wherever you listen to podcasts, and visit zombiehistory.com to see who else I can dig up from generations past and have a fireside chat with.
This is Zombie History.
HISTORY LESSONS… FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE.
For more information about the show, visit zombiehistory.com.
Share this post